April 4, 2026

He Lost EVERYTHING for Love Then the Cult Changed Him | ESPN Broadcaster’s Shocking True Story

He Lost EVERYTHING for Love Then the Cult Changed Him | ESPN Broadcaster’s Shocking True Story

Send us Fan Mail What happens when love doesn’t just blind you… but changes you? In this powerful and deeply personal episode of Kali Kat Tap Talks, we sit down with former ESPN sports broadcaster Peter Young, whose life took a dramatic and heartbreaking turn that no one saw coming. From the outside, Peter had it all — a successful career, a love story that felt destined, and a future full of promise. But behind the scenes, something far more dangerous was unfolding. His partner was involved ...

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Season 2

Send us Fan Mail

What happens when love doesn’t just blind you… but changes you?

In this powerful and deeply personal episode of Kali Kat Tap Talks, we sit down with former ESPN sports broadcaster Peter Young, whose life took a dramatic and heartbreaking turn that no one saw coming.

From the outside, Peter had it all — a successful career, a love story that felt destined, and a future full of promise. But behind the scenes, something far more dangerous was unfolding.

His partner was involved in a secretive cult… one that didn’t just surround him — it slowly changed him.

His thoughts.
His decisions.
His reality.

Blinded by love and influenced by an environment he didn’t fully understand, Peter began to lose himself without even realizing it.

Until everything collapsed.

He lost his career.
He lost his stability.
And most devastating of all… he nearly lost his children.

For years, his kids were manipulated into believing their father was evil — a “devil” figure in their lives. The emotional and psychological damage ran deep, leaving Peter not only fighting to rebuild his own life… but to rediscover who he truly was after being changed by something he couldn’t see clearly at the time.

Now, through his book Stop the Tall Man, Save the Tiger, Peter Young shares his raw, unfiltered journey of survival, awareness, and redemption.

This episode is more than a story — it’s a warning.

We dive into:
• How cult environments can slowly reshape a person’s identity
• The hidden warning signs people often ignore
• How love can make you vulnerable to manipulation
• The emotional toll of losing yourself — and your family
• What it takes to rebuild your identity and regain your children’s trust

This is a story about transformation… but not the kind you choose.

It’s about losing yourself — and finding the strength to come back.

If you’ve ever ignored your instincts, trusted the wrong person, or had to rebuild your life from the ground up — this conversation will stay with you.

👉 Support the podcast:
If this episode moved you, consider supporting Kali Kat Tap Talks — take a sip with me on this journey ☕🍺
Venmo: @Kathyi66

🎧 Listen. Reflect. Share.
Because stories like this need to be heard.

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WEBVTT

00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:10.000
Hello everybody, this is CaliCatTap Talks, and I have Peter Young here with me today, and he's gonna tell you about his journey that he's had.

00:00:10.560 --> 00:00:13.359
He was married, I believe, for 29 years.

00:00:13.519 --> 00:00:24.239
He was in a um well, we're just gonna let him talk, but he also has a book, and we laughed for a little bit before I said small man, but it's not.

00:00:24.399 --> 00:00:28.559
It is called Stop the Tall Man and Save the Tiger.

00:00:28.719 --> 00:00:29.760
Go ahead, Peter.

00:00:30.160 --> 00:00:31.760
Kelly, thanks for having me on your podcast.

00:00:31.920 --> 00:00:34.560
Yeah, my journey is pretty amazing, it's a pretty bizarre one.

00:00:34.880 --> 00:00:38.880
Unwittingly joined a tiny but destructive religious cult.

00:00:39.280 --> 00:00:44.880
Right married the love of my life, which is about 29 years ago, and we did stay married for about 20 years.

00:00:45.200 --> 00:00:53.119
So she was born and raised in a family in the interior of Canada, uh, just over the border from Washington and Montana.

00:00:53.359 --> 00:00:55.600
And they had this weird family guru.

00:00:55.759 --> 00:00:58.560
They called him Uncle Robert, but he wasn't related to anybody.

00:00:58.799 --> 00:01:00.799
So Robert's real name is Robert Bowie.

00:01:01.200 --> 00:01:02.640
He was born and raised in Syria.

00:01:02.880 --> 00:01:07.920
He met my former in-laws at a tiny seminary in Fresno, California, like in the early 70s.

00:01:08.480 --> 00:01:16.560
And he was very narcissistic, and so he really developed this very one-sided, dominant, parasitic relationship with the time, my future in-laws.

00:01:16.879 --> 00:01:22.079
So then I'm a sports broadcaster in my mid to late 20s, and I'm in Pocketel Vida.

00:01:22.480 --> 00:01:25.760
And I'm doing a six and ten sports for the local ABC affiliate.

00:01:26.000 --> 00:01:29.760
Pocatel's not a really big town, so I had seen my former wife.

00:01:29.840 --> 00:01:31.439
I called her Paige in my parking.

00:01:31.760 --> 00:01:36.959
She's a beautiful woman, you know, six foot tall, beautiful blonde hair athletically couldn't miss her.

00:01:37.439 --> 00:01:40.000
And uh, I had seen her around town but never met her.

00:01:40.159 --> 00:01:44.000
I remember I was at the gym working out with my buddy Gary, and I described this woman.

00:01:44.239 --> 00:01:45.200
He said, Oh, I know who that is.

00:01:45.359 --> 00:01:46.319
You know, that's Paige.

00:01:46.560 --> 00:01:47.599
Peter, be careful.

00:01:47.840 --> 00:01:49.519
Her family has this weird thing of a guru.

00:01:50.079 --> 00:01:54.400
So before I ever met my future wife, I knew about the guru, the cult bear.

00:01:54.719 --> 00:01:59.280
So we met, and within you know, two weeks of dating, I was 90% sure I want to marry her.

00:01:59.599 --> 00:02:02.959
But she talked constantly about her father and this property.

00:02:03.359 --> 00:02:08.159
So I'm gonna marry this woman, I gotta get to know these people because they're gonna be a big part of my life.

00:02:08.639 --> 00:02:12.879
I met the father about a month later, and he lived in northern Idaho.

00:02:13.199 --> 00:02:16.719
So it was about a six-hour drive, so I go up there to meet them.

00:02:17.120 --> 00:02:21.360
Uh I'm like, guys, if I go down the hall, I gotta use the bathroom, I stand up to go pee.

00:02:21.599 --> 00:02:26.479
And when I come out, the uh her father's standing right there by the door.

00:02:26.639 --> 00:02:27.759
It's really awkward.

00:02:27.919 --> 00:02:29.840
And he says, I heard you go to the bathroom.

00:02:30.000 --> 00:02:31.120
That was really awkward.

00:02:31.599 --> 00:02:34.159
In our house, the men need to sit down to pee.

00:02:34.400 --> 00:02:40.479
And then he said the phrase that I would hear over and over again for the next 20 years Uncle Robert taught us that.

00:02:41.039 --> 00:02:44.400
And if Uncle Robert taught you something, then it was unassailable.

00:02:44.479 --> 00:02:45.599
You could not question it.

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It was gospel.

00:02:46.800 --> 00:02:48.639
You had to just simply believe it.

00:02:48.879 --> 00:02:52.560
And again, I thought that was really weird, and that was kind of my introduction to my future father-in-law.

00:02:52.719 --> 00:02:56.560
And I thought, okay, you know, kind of odd and eccentric, but harmless, really.

00:02:56.960 --> 00:03:03.360
Then a few months later, I met Uncle Robert, and again, I thought he was eccentric and weird, but not a danger.

00:03:03.599 --> 00:03:08.800
And um we then got married, and you know, we had a child right away.

00:03:08.879 --> 00:03:14.080
We we had ended up having five kids uh and in what I would considered a wonderful marriage.

00:03:14.240 --> 00:03:19.759
And for the first few years of our marriage, we lived in Idaho and Montana, and Uncle Robert lived in Southern California.

00:03:20.159 --> 00:03:24.000
So we did not have a whole lot of interaction with him, at least I didn't.

00:03:24.240 --> 00:03:28.080
And so his control over my life and our marriage was minimal.

00:03:28.319 --> 00:03:33.360
But my wife adored him, my wife revered him and respected him in ways she did not, me.

00:03:34.000 --> 00:03:39.039
And our cult was very small, there's very few adults in it, at most, maybe twelve people.

00:03:39.599 --> 00:03:41.520
But she hung on his every word.

00:03:41.840 --> 00:03:44.080
And much of it I thought the guy was kind of nuts and crazy.

00:03:44.159 --> 00:03:46.639
For the first few years of our marriage, I thought we had the best marriage ever.

00:03:46.719 --> 00:03:48.639
I was the best husband, she was the best wife.

00:03:49.439 --> 00:03:54.639
But she would always talk to him on the phone and he would share kind of crazy stuff.

00:03:54.960 --> 00:04:03.520
He considered um casinos to be the true churches in America, and the churches that we would go to on a Sunday were a waste of time because only he knew the true gospel.

00:04:04.240 --> 00:04:20.399
He also thought that all of America could tap into their own sovereign national credit and you know, borrow any amount of money they wanted to and pay back whenever they wanted to, and that's how we would get out of debt, and of course that would lead to hyperinflation, but you know, he that concept was lost on him.

00:04:20.879 --> 00:04:30.160
And then he also considered all of recorded history history to be a giant struggle between the descendants of Esau and the descendants of Jacob.

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So the descendants of Esau become modern Jewry, and the descendants of Jacob become modern Christendom.

00:04:35.600 --> 00:04:42.160
So every war, recession, depression, plane crash, you name it, was a Jewish conspiracy to take over the world.

00:04:42.720 --> 00:04:47.519
And so whenever I would ask questions about this or anything from him, I would never get a straight answer.

00:04:47.839 --> 00:04:51.759
I would always get, Peter, why are you so stupid that you don't understand me?

00:04:52.480 --> 00:04:54.319
Which is just, you know, classic gaslighting.

00:04:55.120 --> 00:04:59.759
And Uncle Robert, you know, really checked all the boxes of a cult leader.

00:05:00.480 --> 00:05:03.439
He was narcissistic, he had a grandiose sense of self.

00:05:03.600 --> 00:05:09.120
He claimed to have conversations with Alan Greenspan, the former chairman of the Fed.

00:05:09.279 --> 00:05:15.199
You know, he wrote letters to Saddam Hussein to advise him, met with congressmen and senators, etc.

00:05:15.600 --> 00:05:17.360
At least this is what he claimed to do.

00:05:17.519 --> 00:05:19.920
You know, he made all the rules that didn't apply to him.

00:05:20.079 --> 00:05:23.360
He hated questions, he just wanted blind obedience.

00:05:23.839 --> 00:05:34.560
And uh he blurred the lines of the nuclear family in an effort to really destroy the nuclear family so that everybody would be like children trying to curry favor with him and be submissive to him.

00:05:34.800 --> 00:05:40.399
And he also acted as a gatekeeper to God, which again is a very common trait among cult leaders.

00:05:40.560 --> 00:05:44.240
So we were all Christian, but he always claimed to be you know more Christian than anybody.

00:05:44.480 --> 00:05:47.600
He claimed to have sinned only once in his life when he was a little child.

00:05:48.720 --> 00:05:51.199
That's the only the one only time he ever sinned.

00:05:51.680 --> 00:05:55.360
And you know, Christianity is very simple that it salvation is a free gift.

00:05:56.160 --> 00:06:02.319
But in our little cult, you know, he had all of us question our salvation, our testimony.

00:06:02.800 --> 00:06:21.120
So that myself and my wife and my former in-laws and all the other adults who, like me, had been baptized, had professed their faith publicly, would have it challenged by Uncle Robert, and then we doubted it, and then we thought it was fraudulent, so then he had to save us, which again is wicked and unbiblical.

00:06:22.000 --> 00:06:30.160
And so this went on, and I was the proverbial frog in the pot of boiling water for five, ten, fifteen years until I finally got worn down.

00:06:30.560 --> 00:06:38.639
And an important point for your your your audience to know is that um cult leaders don't start up by spouting out our utter nonsense and lies.

00:06:38.800 --> 00:06:40.560
Otherwise, nobody would believe them.

00:06:40.879 --> 00:06:42.560
They start off sounding great.

00:06:42.639 --> 00:06:49.680
You know, if you ever do join a cult and no one ever knowingly joins a cult, no one ever knows they're in a cult, they only know they were in one.

00:06:50.000 --> 00:06:53.040
But if you ever are in one, they'll love bomb you.

00:06:53.120 --> 00:07:01.759
That's kind of the phrase that is given that you get a lot of love and attention uh early on to make you feel comfortable uh with the cult leader.

00:07:02.000 --> 00:07:07.360
And then, you know, the cult leader will slowly but surely over time twist the truth.

00:07:07.519 --> 00:07:09.199
So in our case, he would twist the Bible.

00:07:09.279 --> 00:07:20.639
You know, he would read to us from the Bible, but then he would give each and every verse a little twist, his perverse interpretation of it, so that five, ten, fifteen years down the road, we were nowhere near the true gospel.

00:07:21.360 --> 00:07:23.839
And this was all very slow, it happened very subtly.

00:07:24.240 --> 00:07:35.040
And so everybody else in our little group, you know, my wife, my in-laws, uh my brother-in-law, and some other men, you know, they all believed everything that he said, hook, line, and sinker.

00:07:35.680 --> 00:07:37.839
And and we also kept all this very private.

00:07:37.920 --> 00:07:42.000
Um, cult leaders control their members through isolation, paranoia, and secrecy.

00:07:42.319 --> 00:07:49.040
So my family, my parents, my brothers, my sister-in-laws, the people I worked with here in Montana, no one had any idea.

00:07:49.680 --> 00:07:53.600
Kelly, we weren't out sharing his you know, pearls of wisdom.

00:07:53.759 --> 00:07:54.800
It was the exact opposite.

00:07:54.879 --> 00:08:00.079
In the Bible, they talk about don't throw your pearls of wisdom before the swine, or don't throw your pearls before the swine.

00:08:00.240 --> 00:08:01.040
But that was us.

00:08:01.199 --> 00:08:04.639
The rest of the world was swine, because they wouldn't understand Uncle Robert.

00:08:04.800 --> 00:08:06.959
So we kind of circled the wagons around him.

00:08:07.040 --> 00:08:10.079
So no one had any idea what was going on.

00:08:10.639 --> 00:08:14.160
And for many of these years, I was a sports broadcaster.

00:08:14.639 --> 00:08:24.319
So I was on Outdoor Life Network and ESPN and CBS, and no one had any idea that I was living this other life in my private life.

00:08:25.519 --> 00:08:32.960
And when I say that no one ever knows they're in a cult, what I mean by that is that cults come in all different shapes and sizes.

00:08:33.200 --> 00:08:33.440
Yes.

00:08:34.720 --> 00:08:36.799
But at their core, they all share two things.

00:08:36.879 --> 00:08:41.919
Number one is a leader, and then number two, undue manipulative mind control.

00:08:42.320 --> 00:08:44.639
And then from there it can go in a million different directions.

00:08:44.879 --> 00:08:48.320
Ours thankfully had no sexual abuse, no physical abuse.

00:08:48.559 --> 00:08:50.559
Ours wasn't large, it was small.

00:08:50.799 --> 00:08:56.240
But all cults, regardless of shape and size, have those two characteristics a leader and undue mind control.

00:08:56.399 --> 00:08:59.759
So if the mind control is working, you have no idea you're in a cult.

00:08:59.919 --> 00:09:01.279
You think it's something better.

00:09:01.440 --> 00:09:02.960
It's always something better.

00:09:03.039 --> 00:09:04.799
It's never called a cult.

00:09:04.960 --> 00:09:08.240
It's it's a group, it's a fellowship, it's whatever you want to call it.

00:09:08.480 --> 00:09:10.879
So the people who are in it have no idea.

00:09:11.200 --> 00:09:17.600
And I fought it for years, and then about 16, 17 years into my marriage, I finally caved.

00:09:17.679 --> 00:09:26.000
You know, after all these years of loving my wife and adoring her and hearing her tell me how brilliant this man is, I thought, well, maybe I'm missing something.

00:09:26.159 --> 00:09:32.000
Maybe it's my fault, maybe I missed some elemental truth of the Christian faith that had escaped me all these years.

00:09:32.320 --> 00:09:38.320
And so I caved and allowed myself to be, you know, quote unquote saved by him, which is wrong and unbiblical.

00:09:38.559 --> 00:09:40.559
And I tried to do it like five different times.

00:09:40.720 --> 00:09:42.080
And it was never good enough.

00:09:42.159 --> 00:09:45.840
Uh, cult leaders never want you to be strong enough to be on your own.

00:09:46.000 --> 00:09:50.000
They want you dependent, and they want you under their thumb.

00:09:50.320 --> 00:09:53.759
In Christianity, there is the notion of a way of victory in Christ.

00:09:54.240 --> 00:09:56.159
With Uncle Robert, there was never victory.

00:09:56.240 --> 00:09:58.799
It was always more doubt, more shame.

00:09:59.440 --> 00:10:00.639
You don't get it, Peter.

00:10:00.720 --> 00:10:03.919
You're too stupid, you're incapable of receiving salvation.

00:10:04.159 --> 00:10:06.159
You have a legion of demons in you.

00:10:06.320 --> 00:10:08.480
You taught me all these things, said all these things.

00:10:09.440 --> 00:10:15.679
And so throughout all this process, as I'm trying to save my marriage, you know, I'm going along to get along with my wife.

00:10:16.639 --> 00:10:21.039
Your readers or your listeners should understand just how severe, how strong this is.

00:10:21.759 --> 00:10:24.159
And I'll give two examples of all my wife.

00:10:24.399 --> 00:10:26.799
So we got married and I had a wedding band.

00:10:26.960 --> 00:10:29.679
After a few years, I lost it, couldn't find it, so I bought a new one.

00:10:29.919 --> 00:10:34.320
Ten years later, roughly, I finally find the old wedding band in like a little coat pocket.

00:10:34.399 --> 00:10:42.399
I was working in the garden, and I was thrilled because that to me kind of represented the good old days when our we first got married, our marriage was very strong.

00:10:43.039 --> 00:10:45.679
At this point, the bloom was off the rose.

00:10:45.919 --> 00:10:47.840
And now I had two wedding bands.

00:10:48.080 --> 00:10:54.879
And oh, wouldn't you know that at the same time I found my old original wedding band, Uncle Robert lost his.

00:10:55.039 --> 00:11:00.240
And so Paige suggested that I send my extra wedding band to him because I can't wear two.

00:11:00.399 --> 00:11:02.720
And I remember at the time thinking, this is ridiculous.

00:11:02.879 --> 00:11:04.720
Like, yeah, go to the casino, dude.

00:11:04.799 --> 00:11:08.399
You know, go to your true church and win some money and buy your own wedding band.

00:11:08.639 --> 00:11:12.159
But she was very um, you know, adamant about it.

00:11:12.320 --> 00:11:16.399
She didn't make me, but I went ahead and did it, and I thought it was so unseemly.

00:11:16.879 --> 00:11:22.960
And then years later, Uncle Robert had two sons, and he was married to a fairly normal woman, and he's much older than me.

00:11:23.039 --> 00:11:24.960
He's probably in his eighties by now.

00:11:25.200 --> 00:11:33.279
And those two sons had granddaughters, so he had no grandsons to Paige and my in-laws and the other adults in our little cult.

00:11:33.600 --> 00:11:43.840
The only thing preventing World War III was Uncle Robert and his brilliance, because of course he knows the true dangers in the world, and he is saving us from, of course, um, destruction.

00:11:44.639 --> 00:11:54.559
So a world without a male heir to continue Uncle Robert's precious bloodline and DNA was uh something that Paige just could not stand.

00:11:55.039 --> 00:12:00.080
So she wanted to be a surrogate and provide Uncle Robert with a male grandson.

00:12:00.240 --> 00:12:03.120
She's about 40 years old at this time, and we had already had five kids.

00:12:03.600 --> 00:12:05.679
We even talked about having a sixth.

00:12:06.080 --> 00:12:10.960
And um I was repulsed by the idea, and Uncle Robert obviously thought it was great.

00:12:11.039 --> 00:12:18.720
She wanted to, you know, through in vitro fertilization, have a son with one of Robert's sons, and thus provide him with a grandson.

00:12:18.799 --> 00:12:20.639
And I said, Well, honey, what if you have a daughter?

00:12:20.799 --> 00:12:21.440
Would you do it again?

00:12:21.600 --> 00:12:23.679
She said, Yes, as many times as necessary.

00:12:24.320 --> 00:12:25.840
Thankfully, it did not happen.

00:12:26.000 --> 00:12:31.360
And I was just, you know, the whole uh episode was an eye-open for me, it was scary.

00:12:31.679 --> 00:12:36.000
It just showed how much she adored, revered, and loved him and not me, her husband.

00:12:36.080 --> 00:12:37.840
And I was faithful all these years.

00:12:38.000 --> 00:12:39.440
I loved this woman.

00:12:39.600 --> 00:12:42.720
So around this time she started referring to herself as Abigail.

00:12:42.960 --> 00:12:50.320
And in the Bible, there's a story about a woman named Abigail, who has a surly drunken husband named Nabal, who the Lord strikes dead.

00:12:50.480 --> 00:12:55.200
Then Abigail, who is you know brilliant and courageous in the Bible story, marries King David.

00:12:55.279 --> 00:12:57.039
You've probably heard of King David from the Bible.

00:12:57.200 --> 00:13:01.759
Well, it doesn't take a rock scientist to figure out that if she's Abigail, I'm Nabal.

00:13:01.840 --> 00:13:04.480
And Uncle Robert is you know the future King David.

00:13:04.720 --> 00:13:14.159
So sure enough, you know, a few years later, she leaves me, leaves the merits because I was never devoted enough, pure enough, reliant enough on Uncle Robert.

00:13:14.320 --> 00:13:25.600
And then she and Uncle Robert start this vicious campaign of teaching our five children that I was the devil, that I was Satan, sorcerer, a bloodline, or a sperm donor.

00:13:25.840 --> 00:13:26.720
And I was devastated.

00:13:26.799 --> 00:13:30.000
I was never suicidal, but I didn't want my marriage to end.

00:13:30.639 --> 00:13:34.240
I loved my wife, my world was crashing down around me.

00:13:34.480 --> 00:13:35.360
So she left me.

00:13:35.519 --> 00:13:37.759
The children are being taught that I'm the devil.

00:13:37.919 --> 00:13:41.440
And Uncle Robert at the time, who I'm still listening to because I'm brainwashed.

00:13:41.519 --> 00:13:43.759
I've been brainwashed for about two years at that point.

00:13:44.559 --> 00:13:51.360
And uh he's telling me that I'm incapable of receiving salvation, that I have a legion of demons, and that I'm a doomed man.

00:13:51.759 --> 00:13:56.879
And yet I'm hearing this at the same time at night because I couldn't sleep, I couldn't eat, I was a wreck.

00:13:57.039 --> 00:13:59.919
Again, never suicidal, but I mean I'm I'm on the edge.

00:14:00.000 --> 00:14:02.080
I'm struggling, I'm at rock bottom.

00:14:02.240 --> 00:14:05.440
And I would cry out to the Lord, you know, I would read my Bible, and I would cry out.

00:14:05.919 --> 00:14:07.519
On the one hand, I knew he heard me.

00:14:07.679 --> 00:14:15.279
And on the other hand, I've got this crazy little narcissistic, wicked man speaking into my life, and it's horrific.

00:14:15.600 --> 00:14:20.639
So then they started to teach the kids, you know, Peter, you're just a bloodline and sperm donor.

00:14:20.720 --> 00:14:21.840
You're not a true dad.

00:14:22.000 --> 00:14:25.360
You you are so incapable of being a true father.

00:14:25.840 --> 00:14:30.960
And that Callie is what really kind of started the process of me healing because I thought, well, wait a minute.

00:14:31.039 --> 00:14:44.399
You know, two years earlier, you know, Paige, you wanted to preserve Uncle Robert's precious bloodline and sperm to save the world, and now you're calling me a sperm donor as a pejorative to gen to denigrate me.

00:14:45.039 --> 00:14:55.600
And uh so then I finally reached out to you know my family, my brothers, my sister-in-laws, my parents, and the people in the local community who again had no idea this was going on.

00:14:55.759 --> 00:14:56.879
I mean, they were like, what?

00:14:56.960 --> 00:14:58.399
The Jews are out to control the world?

00:14:58.559 --> 00:15:00.399
Casinos are the true churches in America?

00:15:00.559 --> 00:15:01.679
What are you talking about?

00:15:02.000 --> 00:15:03.039
They had no idea.

00:15:03.279 --> 00:15:10.480
And so the Lord truly rescued me and opened my eyes and ears to the truth through my faith and my friends and family.

00:15:10.720 --> 00:15:20.080
And so, as I had other sane voices, you know, come into my life, I was hearing other voices rather than just this one madman, which is really the most important point.

00:15:20.159 --> 00:15:30.320
If anybody takes anything out of my story and my talk, it's that when we are vulnerable, we are, let's say, alone and isolated, we are vulnerable.

00:15:30.720 --> 00:15:34.000
In Christianity, we talk about the body of Christ, the body of believers.

00:15:34.159 --> 00:15:37.200
Okay, if I cut off my thumb, I'm not gonna die.

00:15:37.360 --> 00:15:38.639
My thumb will die, but I won't.

00:15:38.720 --> 00:15:40.080
And I was like that little thumb.

00:15:40.159 --> 00:15:44.879
I was cut off from the other believers, fellow Christians in my community, in my church.

00:15:45.200 --> 00:15:48.080
And so I was only listening to this one person's voice.

00:15:48.320 --> 00:15:49.519
So I was very vulnerable.

00:15:49.840 --> 00:16:00.480
Well, now that I had other people surrounding me, supporting me and loving me and helping me, I, you know, kind of got reconnected to the body of Christ, other believers who could strengthen me and help me, and they did.

00:16:00.799 --> 00:16:02.399
And so I finally saw the truth.

00:16:02.879 --> 00:16:04.639
My wife did file for divorce.

00:16:04.879 --> 00:16:17.519
We got a guardian at lightum involved, which, if you don't know what that is, the court appoints a person to look after the best interests of the children in a hunk high conflict divorce, which is what ours was.

00:16:18.080 --> 00:16:21.360
And so um, you know, Paige filed for divorce again.

00:16:21.440 --> 00:16:29.039
I was faithful on entire marriage, was devastated, didn't not want the divorce, but she was now fully just listening to Uncle Robert and nobody else.

00:16:29.279 --> 00:16:33.519
And so they continued the process of parental alienation, trying to teach the kids that it was the devil.

00:16:33.600 --> 00:16:35.039
And they weren't even trying to hide it.

00:16:35.200 --> 00:16:38.879
They were just so confident in Uncle Robert that he knew the truth and nobody else did.

00:16:39.200 --> 00:16:42.799
Then the Garden Ed Lightham wrote a jaw-dropping 50-page report.

00:16:42.960 --> 00:16:48.480
The three youngest children who had Paige took with her when she left the marriage, courts sent them back to me.

00:16:48.960 --> 00:17:02.080
And so, you know, here's a woman that's not on drugs or drinking or in jail, committed a crime, but the court saw how abusive cults are to children, and how awful an abusive parental alienation is.

00:17:02.320 --> 00:17:07.039
So they sent the kids back to me and it to kind of compress these next few years.

00:17:07.200 --> 00:17:09.599
You know, she had supervised visits for a long time.

00:17:09.839 --> 00:17:11.279
The kids uh lived with me.

00:17:11.359 --> 00:17:13.279
I was a single dad, still I'm a single dad.

00:17:13.359 --> 00:17:15.039
And again, I recovered.

00:17:15.279 --> 00:17:23.519
And uh, out of our five children, it's a bit of a mixed bag because um, you know, the parental alienation and the cult influence is very strong on them.

00:17:23.759 --> 00:17:26.720
And so for many of them, I'm still the bad guy.

00:17:26.960 --> 00:17:37.119
They still, as they should, love their mother, but uh they also listen and believe everything that their mother says is true about me, which it's not, and I'm not perfect, you know.

00:17:37.200 --> 00:17:43.279
I'm certainly a very imperfect human being, and I'm okay with that because all that means is I needed a savior, right?

00:17:43.359 --> 00:17:48.400
If I was perfect or close to it, like Uncle Robert claimed, with only one sin, you know, need a savior.

00:17:48.559 --> 00:17:52.400
Yeah, but those kind of people are yeah, and and there's no humility.

00:17:52.559 --> 00:17:53.359
You're exactly right.

00:17:53.440 --> 00:17:54.319
Nobody's perfect.

00:17:54.480 --> 00:17:56.240
That's why we need a savior.

00:17:56.480 --> 00:17:59.039
So now my faith is stronger than it ever was.

00:17:59.279 --> 00:18:02.960
People will say, well, Peter, it's great that you didn't reject your faith.

00:18:03.200 --> 00:18:06.400
My answer to that is I wouldn't be here without it.

00:18:06.559 --> 00:18:12.960
I literally would probably not be alive without my faith in Jesus, because my story is a great example.

00:18:13.200 --> 00:18:17.599
And it's just like the story in Luke chapter 8, and you may have heard it.

00:18:17.759 --> 00:18:24.559
And there's a man who's demon-possessed, and he nobody can control him in this little town, and he's living out in the caves, and he's this is a wild man.

00:18:25.119 --> 00:18:29.519
Christ comes, meets the man, and heals him and saves the man, right?

00:18:29.680 --> 00:18:33.279
Now he's in his same mind, and he begs Christ to go with him.

00:18:33.440 --> 00:18:35.440
And Christ says, No, I got something more important for you.

00:18:35.599 --> 00:18:36.720
And I'm paraphrasing.

00:18:37.200 --> 00:18:40.960
And he says, Go home and tell your friends and family what the Lord has done for you.

00:18:41.440 --> 00:18:42.640
And that's your testimony.

00:18:42.799 --> 00:18:45.119
Your testimony is what has the Lord done for you?

00:18:45.599 --> 00:18:47.440
And so that's why I share this story.

00:18:47.519 --> 00:18:49.279
This is what the Lord has done for me.

00:18:49.519 --> 00:18:54.000
I was sucked into and brainwashed into a tiny religious cult, and he rescued me.

00:18:54.240 --> 00:19:01.599
And so I share my story as a cautionary tale for others so that you don't go through what I did.

00:19:02.160 --> 00:19:08.240
Because the journey in and out of a tiny religious cult or any cult is awful.

00:19:08.400 --> 00:19:11.279
It's very painful, and you don't want to experience it.

00:19:11.440 --> 00:19:16.640
And so that's why I wrote my book, and that's why I come on podcasts like this to share this story.

00:19:16.960 --> 00:19:18.640
Yeah, and thank you for being on the podcast.

00:19:18.799 --> 00:19:20.079
Thank you for reaching out to me.

00:19:20.720 --> 00:19:23.359
But what were the signs to me?

00:19:23.440 --> 00:19:31.119
When somebody tells me a casino is a church, that was a a red flag, or hey, you're peeing the wrong way?

00:19:31.279 --> 00:19:32.400
That's another red flag.

00:19:32.799 --> 00:19:37.440
So the question is, what did you really know?

00:19:37.599 --> 00:19:38.640
What are the signs?

00:19:38.799 --> 00:19:39.519
What are the signs?

00:19:39.599 --> 00:19:40.240
Let me back up.

00:19:40.319 --> 00:19:41.440
What are the signs?

00:19:42.079 --> 00:19:42.720
Sure.

00:19:43.279 --> 00:19:49.200
Um, okay, before I was, you know, really kind of brainwashed, you know, remember if you remember back to my story.

00:19:49.359 --> 00:19:51.519
Um for years I thought he was nuts.

00:19:51.599 --> 00:19:54.640
You know, when my future father-in-law told me to sit down to pee, I thought he was crazy.

00:19:54.720 --> 00:19:56.000
I think, oh my goodness.

00:19:56.240 --> 00:20:06.319
When Robert Booty, uh, which is his real name, Uncle Robert's real name, told me about casinos of the two churches in America, you know, and all of recorded history goes back to this struggle between these ancient peoples.

00:20:06.559 --> 00:20:09.200
Again, I thought, this sounds really weird, right?

00:20:09.359 --> 00:20:11.039
This sounds really weird to me.

00:20:11.279 --> 00:20:15.200
And I would ask those questions, and then I would, you know, kind of get piled on.

00:20:15.359 --> 00:20:19.279
And through all this Cali, my wife believes everything Robert says.

00:20:19.359 --> 00:20:21.680
So now I'm diminished in her eyes.

00:20:22.000 --> 00:20:27.519
So I kind of just was like the frog in the pot of water as the water kept getting heated up to a boiling.

00:20:27.680 --> 00:20:29.119
I didn't jump out in time.

00:20:29.279 --> 00:20:30.799
So I saw the signs.

00:20:30.960 --> 00:20:32.400
I knew it was really weird.

00:20:32.640 --> 00:20:41.599
It was only afterwards, when I fully recovered, that I had enough, let's say, wisdom from the Lord to recognize that it was a cult.

00:20:41.759 --> 00:20:45.119
So going into it, I thought it was weird and awkward and inappropriate.

00:20:45.359 --> 00:20:53.200
Only when it got really bad and then I got saved was I able to look back and say, yes, that was a cult.

00:20:53.680 --> 00:20:59.680
And maybe the answer to your question is really not so much what were the signs, were it was, well, how do you stop it?

00:21:00.000 --> 00:21:04.319
And the way to stop it would have been if I had not been so isolated.

00:21:04.480 --> 00:21:05.359
That's the key.

00:21:05.599 --> 00:21:11.119
I was isolated, and I only was listening to my wife and Uncle Robert.

00:21:11.359 --> 00:21:21.279
If I had allowed other people into my life and really been able to listen to, let's say, my brothers, my parents, and other people, then I might have been able to prevent that.

00:21:21.759 --> 00:21:26.240
Yeah, but you had a life with ESPN as a sports broadcaster.

00:21:26.640 --> 00:21:32.559
I mean, was they didn't know that this was going on, or did you have like a shield in front of you?

00:21:32.960 --> 00:21:34.160
Yeah, great question.

00:21:34.240 --> 00:21:43.680
And and what that points to is that small cults, I don't know if it's true for big cults, but small cults for sure can easily hide within society.

00:21:43.920 --> 00:21:48.960
So, like you, when I think of a cult, I think of Jim Jones, uh Jonestown, drinking drink of the Kool-Aid.

00:21:49.119 --> 00:21:53.359
I think of David Koresh and Waco, Heaven's Gate, and that's suicide.

00:21:53.680 --> 00:21:55.599
And we didn't look like a cult.

00:21:55.759 --> 00:21:57.519
I don't think I look like a cult member.

00:21:57.680 --> 00:21:59.759
We didn't shave our heads, wear crazy clothing.

00:22:00.240 --> 00:22:06.160
We weren't chanting slogans on the sidewalks, selling flowers to raise money, and nobody committed suicide.

00:22:06.400 --> 00:22:09.519
But we did drink the figurative Kool-Aid.

00:22:09.839 --> 00:22:23.279
So I was very capable of compartmentalizing my life as a sports broadcaster, as a community member, and then being in this tiny little cult, which again I didn't think was a cult.

00:22:23.599 --> 00:22:29.920
And so with someone like Robert, I think they know, I think most cult leaders know that what they're doing is wrong.

00:22:30.160 --> 00:22:34.559
And so to avoid detection, they fly underneath the radar.

00:22:34.799 --> 00:22:38.640
So for instance, Kelly, you know, where there were certain words we couldn't say on a cell phone.

00:22:38.799 --> 00:22:42.559
We were told not to say Jew or Gentile or Israel on the cell phone.

00:22:42.799 --> 00:22:44.720
We had to shred all of our trash.

00:22:44.960 --> 00:22:47.440
If Uncle Robert was taking a trip to Washington, D.C.

00:22:47.599 --> 00:22:54.640
and back, we had to make sure we didn't call him and ask where he was, because of course somebody was always listening to his phone calls, which might be the case.

00:22:54.960 --> 00:23:00.400
And uh so we had to be very kind of cloak and dagger to protect him to circle the wagons.

00:23:00.720 --> 00:23:02.559
And so that's how that's how I pulled it off.

00:23:02.640 --> 00:23:03.680
That's how I kept it secret.

00:23:03.920 --> 00:23:04.160
Wow.

00:23:04.400 --> 00:23:12.000
But with your wife that you were in love with in your home, is that was it Coltonism or something?

00:23:12.160 --> 00:23:14.319
Is was that a part of your home?

00:23:14.559 --> 00:23:17.680
Or is that only when you were with Uncle Robert?

00:23:18.000 --> 00:23:18.960
Well, good question.

00:23:19.119 --> 00:23:21.200
It was really 24-7.

00:23:21.519 --> 00:23:23.119
It was pervasive, it was everywhere.

00:23:23.839 --> 00:23:28.079
During this time, Uncle Robert lived in Southern California, so he was kind of the Riverside area.

00:23:28.480 --> 00:23:30.880
And we lived again in Idaho and Montana.

00:23:31.200 --> 00:23:34.240
But my wife would talk to him on the phone almost every day.

00:23:34.319 --> 00:23:36.240
I mean, for the first few years, not so much.

00:23:36.400 --> 00:23:42.559
But again, after 20 years of marriage, you know, the phone calls were maybe once or twice a week to once or twice a day.

00:23:42.799 --> 00:23:50.799
And even after I became brainwashed around 2015, again, it was just a short time, two years, I would talk to him almost every day on the phone.

00:23:50.960 --> 00:23:53.039
My in-laws would talk to him on the phone every day.

00:23:53.200 --> 00:24:02.880
And then we would meet him once or twice a year up in Northern Idaho, where my in-laws lived, and we would have these conferences, and we would just sit there and listen to him talk for hours on end.

00:24:03.440 --> 00:24:09.279
And um, so then we would take that theology, that philosophy back with us to our home.

00:24:09.440 --> 00:24:20.240
And so when it came to raising our children, to disciplining them, to educating them, to how we interacted with other people in our community, it was all based on what he said.

00:24:20.400 --> 00:24:21.680
It was all his philosophy.

00:24:21.839 --> 00:24:28.799
So, like we would go to a church for a year or two, and then we would always leave because Paige would share what the pastor said with Uncle Robert.

00:24:28.960 --> 00:24:31.039
He, of course, would say, Well, that guy's wrong, and you have to leave.

00:24:31.119 --> 00:24:36.960
And we would feel after when they came to Idaho and you guys had your convention.

00:24:37.200 --> 00:24:38.400
How did you feel after that?

00:24:38.559 --> 00:24:41.279
Did you feel like, oh my god, this guy is cuckoo?

00:24:41.359 --> 00:24:43.119
Uh, did you talk to your wife about it?

00:24:43.279 --> 00:24:44.559
Walk us through that.

00:24:44.960 --> 00:24:45.440
Sure.

00:24:46.240 --> 00:24:46.960
All the above.

00:24:47.039 --> 00:24:55.279
So, yes, I did think it ties to his very cuckoo, and I I remember I would take a lot of notes, and um, he would share one of his pearls of wisdom, and it was a whopper.

00:24:55.519 --> 00:25:00.640
And I would look around the room and thinking, is he pulling our leg?

00:25:00.880 --> 00:25:06.319
And nope, Paige and my in-law's email, so they're taking notes and they are hanging on his every word.

00:25:06.559 --> 00:25:09.279
Again, I will go back to the point I made.

00:25:09.519 --> 00:25:12.880
A lot of what he shared was absolutely brilliant.

00:25:13.039 --> 00:25:15.920
A lot of it was, but not all of it.

00:25:16.079 --> 00:25:22.720
And the brilliance is what kind of sucks you in and gets you to think, okay, you know, maybe I need to cut this guy some slack, maybe he does know what he's talking about.

00:25:22.880 --> 00:25:26.400
So then when the whoppers come, your defenses are down a little bit.

00:25:26.559 --> 00:25:29.519
And I still saw this and thought, wow, this is nuts.

00:25:29.759 --> 00:25:39.440
But I, for the most part, not always, but for the most part, kind of kept my reservations to myself because I I realized if I said something, I was in the line of fire.

00:25:39.599 --> 00:25:44.400
And he would get angry at me, and then I'm diminished in the eyes of my wife.

00:25:44.480 --> 00:25:46.000
And that was my real fear.

00:25:46.160 --> 00:25:47.599
I was trying to protect my marriage.

00:25:47.839 --> 00:25:54.079
So, what kept you going mentally when everything around you was just falling apart and it was just crashing down?

00:25:54.319 --> 00:26:05.359
Well, it was my faith in the Lord, you know, and I was really uh crushed and humbled, and I tell people I didn't just hit rock bottom, I was bounced along the rock bottom for months at a time.

00:26:05.440 --> 00:26:08.160
Um, I couldn't sleep, I was getting about an hour or two a night.

00:26:08.319 --> 00:26:14.640
And if you've ever had insomnia, you know that trying to deal with emotional issues is almost impossible when you haven't slept.

00:26:14.799 --> 00:26:15.680
I couldn't eat.

00:26:15.759 --> 00:26:18.319
Uh I'm 6'5, about two tenths, I'm a lean guy.

00:26:18.400 --> 00:26:20.079
I'd lost like 30 pounds.

00:26:20.720 --> 00:26:25.279
And and the worst part about it was, Kelly, that, you know, Paige and Robert told me not to tell anybody.

00:26:25.359 --> 00:26:33.519
So when she left, um, they said, you know, don't tell your your parents, your brothers, your family, or anybody in the community, you know, let's wait, we'll tell the kids.

00:26:33.680 --> 00:26:34.480
Don't tell anybody.

00:26:34.640 --> 00:26:39.359
So I had this horrible secret I'm holding in, and I couldn't share with anybody.

00:26:39.440 --> 00:26:45.119
And I finally just couldn't hold it any longer and uh told my family about four months after she left me.

00:26:45.359 --> 00:27:04.079
But I would go on these long walks, I would cry out to the Lord, I would read my Bible, and um, and then it was really again through, you know, my faith, prayer, but also just the love and support of friends and family that immediately saw, wow, this is bad, this is a family crisis.

00:27:04.240 --> 00:27:14.799
And, you know, I had two brothers that, you know, over the course of that summer flew out to visit with me, my dad flew out to visit with me, I had other friends that, you know, I would go stay at their house because I just couldn't be alone.

00:27:14.880 --> 00:27:17.519
I was just so anxious and fearful.

00:27:17.759 --> 00:27:27.839
And so it was um, I mean, it was a full year of really having my eyes and ears open to where I could finally say, a full year after she left me, you know what?

00:27:28.559 --> 00:27:32.720
Uncle Robert's not the savior, he's the problem, he's the one that caused all this.

00:27:32.960 --> 00:27:40.880
Yeah, I I understand that, and I'm trying to trying to still trying to grasp some of it because you're like a a public figure.

00:27:41.200 --> 00:27:44.880
I mean, was this going on during your time at ESPN?

00:27:45.440 --> 00:27:51.680
Or you you're a public figure and nobody noticed, hey, um hey, Peter's kind of different.

00:27:51.839 --> 00:27:52.960
Nobody noticed.

00:27:53.599 --> 00:27:57.920
Yeah, so I'm gonna tell share two stories with you, what is which is fascinating.

00:27:58.559 --> 00:28:01.839
A few months before Paige left me, I knew things were bad.

00:28:02.000 --> 00:28:08.319
You know, she wanted what was called a reconciliation period, where we'll try and reconcile our marriage, and if not, we'll we'll split and go our separate ways.

00:28:08.400 --> 00:28:11.200
And again, only Uncle Robert and Paige and I knew.

00:28:11.440 --> 00:28:13.599
He said, don't tell anybody, so we didn't tell anybody.

00:28:13.759 --> 00:28:17.119
And I'm devastated, I'm terrified, I'm walking on eggshells.

00:28:17.279 --> 00:28:20.079
And I had a football game on ESPN.

00:28:20.240 --> 00:28:25.119
Uh, it was uh at the University of Idaho up in Moscow, Idaho.

00:28:25.359 --> 00:28:27.599
And uh, you know, and I'm trying to get back in full time.

00:28:27.680 --> 00:28:30.720
I'd kind of gotten out of the business, now I'm back in, and I'm working for ESPN.

00:28:30.880 --> 00:28:31.440
This is great.

00:28:31.519 --> 00:28:35.200
It's not a marquee game, but it's still a college football game on ESPN.

00:28:35.359 --> 00:28:42.240
And I am so anxious and fearful over what's happening to my marriage that in the middle of the game, you know, it was hard to concentrate.

00:28:42.400 --> 00:28:49.200
Like Callie, I would have the this big sheet, you know, in front of me with all the team's rosters, their numbers, their stats, and notes for the game.

00:28:49.359 --> 00:28:51.680
That's what we sports broadcasters do.

00:28:52.000 --> 00:29:00.880
And on there, like at little corners of my of my um notes, I would have Bible verses written out to try and calm my nerves so I could get through the game.

00:29:01.039 --> 00:29:02.559
And I don't think anybody knew.

00:29:02.720 --> 00:29:07.680
I think maybe the producer thought, oh, Peter didn't do a very good job, but no one could tell what was going on.

00:29:07.920 --> 00:29:12.960
And then the second story is she left me on the January, January 14th, 2017.

00:29:13.599 --> 00:29:14.640
Horrific day.

00:29:14.880 --> 00:29:18.960
Now, September of that year, so nine months later, I'm recovering, getting better.

00:29:19.039 --> 00:29:23.599
I've told my family now, and my family lives all over the country, not in Montana.

00:29:23.680 --> 00:29:26.720
So now I tell my people at my work, my coworkers.

00:29:26.960 --> 00:29:29.519
We had a staff meeting, and I told them all what was happening.

00:29:29.599 --> 00:29:35.440
You know, my wife left me, my kids think I'm the devil, my life is crashing before my eyes.

00:29:35.759 --> 00:29:42.720
And and I would go on these long walks and I would be bawling my eyes out in the car on these long walks.

00:29:42.880 --> 00:29:45.519
I'd lost all this weight, I looked horrible.

00:29:45.759 --> 00:29:48.240
And I always made sure that you know no one saw me crying.

00:29:48.400 --> 00:29:54.319
But I thought when I showed up to work with these red puffy eyes and I was skinny and I would take these long walks, that people knew.

00:29:54.640 --> 00:29:56.400
Callie, nobody knew.

00:29:56.559 --> 00:29:59.359
No one had any idea what I was going through.

00:29:59.599 --> 00:30:09.200
And for me, that lesson is you know, you're out on the highway and a guy cuts you off, or you're at the grocery store and the clerk checking you out is is really rude.

00:30:09.440 --> 00:30:12.240
You have no idea what that person is going through, right?

00:30:12.480 --> 00:30:21.039
Everybody that you know or interact with is either going through something really hard, will go through something really hard, or already did it.

00:30:21.599 --> 00:30:23.359
So the idea is be be kind.

00:30:23.680 --> 00:30:26.240
Be kind to people because you just don't know what they're going through.

00:30:26.480 --> 00:30:28.240
Yeah, that's a very true statement.

00:30:28.799 --> 00:30:29.759
Very true statement.

00:30:31.599 --> 00:30:39.200
The mindset of people nowadays versus years goes is very different, and people are just snapping.

00:30:40.240 --> 00:30:42.240
So I you know, I agree with you.

00:30:42.640 --> 00:30:44.720
So you said the Lord rescued you.

00:30:44.880 --> 00:30:49.440
Can you walk us through the turning point that helped you break free?

00:30:49.759 --> 00:30:50.400
Yes.

00:30:51.039 --> 00:30:53.839
There was no one road to Damascus type moment.

00:30:54.079 --> 00:30:57.119
So again, that's a biblical, you know, story where Saul becomes Paul.

00:30:57.200 --> 00:31:01.440
He's persecuting Christians and killing them, and then he becomes, he writes half the New Testament.

00:31:01.680 --> 00:31:03.759
And it happens in a flash.

00:31:04.000 --> 00:31:05.200
I didn't have that.

00:31:05.359 --> 00:31:07.599
I had several moments along the way.

00:31:07.839 --> 00:31:13.200
The first big one that I shared earlier was when Paige and Uncle Robert had emailed me.

00:31:13.279 --> 00:31:16.960
So she's already left, taking the youngest kids with her to northern Idaho.

00:31:17.359 --> 00:31:24.480
And uh she is emailing me, and I'm hearing this from Uncle Robert on the phone, that, you know, Peter, you know, you're not a true father.

00:31:24.559 --> 00:31:26.640
You're just a bloodline or a sperm donor.

00:31:26.799 --> 00:31:32.960
And I thought back to two years prior where she wanted to be a surrogate and provide a male heir to protect his bloodline.

00:31:33.519 --> 00:31:40.160
And then there were several other moments that summer where Paige's anger and rage towards me was off the charts.

00:31:40.240 --> 00:31:41.119
And we're still married.

00:31:41.200 --> 00:31:45.920
You know, I'm still her husband, and she's being unbelievably mean spirited.

00:31:46.160 --> 00:31:48.160
And now it's spilling into the children.

00:31:48.319 --> 00:31:54.000
And then there were times where Uncle Robert would uh say things and write things in an email, and I thought, that's not true.

00:31:54.240 --> 00:31:57.119
Like, wait a minute, uh that that doesn't seem right.

00:31:57.359 --> 00:32:02.960
And so then for me, it was hard because I would want to give them the benefit of the doubt, because again, I was brainwashed.

00:32:03.119 --> 00:32:05.599
I thought they're right, I'm wrong, it's all my fault.

00:32:05.920 --> 00:32:08.559
But then I had these other people that I would share these emails with.

00:32:08.640 --> 00:32:11.119
So, like, I'd get this email and they would send me into a tailspin.

00:32:11.200 --> 00:32:13.920
I'd be, you know, I could barely eat and function the rest of the day.

00:32:14.160 --> 00:32:27.599
But I would share that with my counselor or a friend of mine or my brother, and they would instantly see how crazy Uncle Robert and Paige were with their writings and what they were thinking, and they would help me see it.

00:32:27.759 --> 00:32:36.000
And so it was a process of people helping me realize that no, this was not my fault.

00:32:36.319 --> 00:32:38.960
I'm not the one that engineered this destruction.

00:32:39.119 --> 00:32:45.039
And again, even though I was only brainwashed for about two and a half years, that process took nearly a year.

00:32:45.359 --> 00:32:45.680
Wow.

00:32:45.920 --> 00:32:46.319
Wow.

00:32:46.480 --> 00:32:54.240
So you say you have you have five children, three went to your wife, then the state gave them back to you.

00:32:54.559 --> 00:33:01.039
So what state of mind were your children in, or or your entire family, just you and your kids?

00:33:02.400 --> 00:33:07.279
So, you know, cults are uh you know abusive towards children.

00:33:07.359 --> 00:33:11.119
I mean, that's that's what the courts consider, and and that's not just my opinion.

00:33:11.359 --> 00:33:14.400
Thankfully, we had no sexual or physical abuse in ours.

00:33:14.640 --> 00:33:20.240
And we homeschooled our kids for many years, so they were around me all the time and my wife, so I know there was none of that going on, thank the Lord.

00:33:20.480 --> 00:33:24.880
But still, cults are emotionally abusive mentally and spiritually as well.

00:33:25.119 --> 00:33:36.160
So, you know, when your kids are taught, and then they're saying this back to you, Dad, the fifth commandment of the Bible to honor thy father and mother doesn't apply to you because it only applies to dads that love their kids.

00:33:36.319 --> 00:33:40.319
And they're taught this by, again, Paige, their mother, and Uncle Robert.

00:33:40.559 --> 00:33:42.720
They're taught that I am the devil.

00:33:42.880 --> 00:33:46.160
I had a child look me in the eye and say, You're a devil with no soul.

00:33:46.400 --> 00:33:50.720
And I'm not mad at that child, I'm not mad at any of my kids, because it wasn't their fault.

00:33:50.880 --> 00:33:57.440
It was like a computer virus going from Uncle Robert to their mother to the kids, you know, computer virus in, computer virus out.

00:33:57.680 --> 00:34:01.119
So they had all of this junk to work through as well.

00:34:01.359 --> 00:34:09.519
The courts saw it, so then when they sent them the three youngest back to me, the two oldest were, you know, beyond the age of the courts being involved, so they were over 18.

00:34:09.760 --> 00:34:13.519
So they were kind of on their own uh during to this time.

00:34:14.079 --> 00:34:23.440
But it took a while for the children when they came back to live with me to really be comfortable around me and realize, oh, you know, dad's dad, he's not the devil.

00:34:23.599 --> 00:34:23.920
Huh.

00:34:24.159 --> 00:34:24.880
Go figure.

00:34:25.119 --> 00:34:27.039
And they all came around, but it took a while.

00:34:28.320 --> 00:34:29.119
Wow, yeah.

00:34:29.840 --> 00:34:31.440
Must have been devastating for you.

00:34:32.159 --> 00:34:36.880
Uh, did you feel fear when stepping away from the group and its influence?

00:34:38.320 --> 00:34:38.960
Yes.

00:34:39.440 --> 00:34:40.960
Um, yep.

00:34:41.360 --> 00:34:45.760
Because when you become brainwashed, you also become very dependent on the cult leader.

00:34:45.840 --> 00:34:47.599
And of course, this is all on purpose.

00:34:47.920 --> 00:34:49.920
The cult leader wants you dependent.

00:34:50.079 --> 00:34:53.519
So again, you know, there's there's no victory in Christ, there's no victory under Uncle Robert.

00:34:53.599 --> 00:34:55.840
It was you know just constant doubt and questioning.

00:34:56.000 --> 00:35:01.519
And I would question every single thought that came through my mind, and it was a miserable way to live.

00:35:01.760 --> 00:35:09.519
So then when other people are telling me, you know, Peter, you know, he said this or he said that, that's just not true, and you know that.

00:35:09.760 --> 00:35:16.880
And I did know it, but the step, the mental step of saying, You're right, Uncle Robert's wrong, that was scary at first.

00:35:17.119 --> 00:35:23.039
But as I did it time and time again with just little things, yeah, you're right, what he said was wrong.

00:35:23.119 --> 00:35:24.880
You're right, Uncle Robert was wrong there.

00:35:25.119 --> 00:35:28.000
As I did that more and more, it became easier.

00:35:28.159 --> 00:35:30.880
But the first few times I did it, it was scary.

00:35:31.039 --> 00:35:31.679
Yeah.

00:35:32.719 --> 00:35:34.639
Well, what inspired you to write?

00:35:35.119 --> 00:35:39.599
Well, I wanted my children to know the true story of what happened.

00:35:39.920 --> 00:35:46.239
Because, you know, as horrific as the parental alienation was, I wanted to make sure I didn't do the same thing.

00:35:46.320 --> 00:35:48.000
So I didn't want a bad mouth page.

00:35:48.159 --> 00:35:49.280
Again, I loved the woman.

00:35:49.440 --> 00:35:51.119
I didn't want to have a divorce.

00:35:51.360 --> 00:35:55.519
And we've been divorced a long time now, and she's still, you know, very angry towards me.

00:35:55.679 --> 00:35:56.800
But I didn't want to do the same thing.

00:35:56.880 --> 00:35:59.519
I didn't want to be a hypocrite and start bashing her, so I didn't.

00:35:59.760 --> 00:36:03.679
So as a result, I also didn't say much about what had happened to the kids.

00:36:04.079 --> 00:36:10.079
So during COVID, when a lot of people were doing whatever, my kids were watching videos, I started typing.

00:36:10.400 --> 00:36:14.800
And one page became five, became ten, became a book, and I wrote the whole story.

00:36:15.039 --> 00:36:29.119
And I wanted to share it with a larger audience so that people would learn from my experience and not commit the same mistakes, but also primarily countless so that my kids would know hey, here's dad's side of the story.

00:36:29.360 --> 00:36:31.280
And I wanted my kids to read it.

00:36:31.360 --> 00:36:34.800
I I still don't know if all five kids have read it, I know a few of them have.

00:36:35.039 --> 00:36:36.800
And I'm very kind to their mother.

00:36:36.960 --> 00:36:47.840
I try and be very fair to Paige because really, even though she's done some horrible things, and if you read the book, it it you'll get quite angry with her, but she is a victim, just like I am.

00:36:48.000 --> 00:36:52.800
She is a victim because she grew up in a world where Uncle Robert has brainwashed her.

00:36:53.039 --> 00:37:03.519
Yeah, she is a victim, but her level, because she's been in it longer, so she's gonna believe it until today she's not here anymore.

00:37:03.679 --> 00:37:05.199
That's an unfortunate situation.

00:37:05.280 --> 00:37:09.280
It would take her a long time to get out of something that she was born into.

00:37:10.159 --> 00:37:11.440
Or the Lord provides a miracle.

00:37:11.599 --> 00:37:13.280
Yeah, the Lord does a miracle in her life.

00:37:13.760 --> 00:37:16.159
Yes, the Lord does provide a miracle.

00:37:16.480 --> 00:37:22.960
So when you were writing this book, was it very painful or was it healing, or was it both?

00:37:23.679 --> 00:37:27.280
It was incredibly healing, therapeutic, and cathartic.

00:37:27.360 --> 00:37:31.679
I mean, I I uh I love to write, and oftentimes though, writing is very difficult.

00:37:31.760 --> 00:37:39.519
You know, I I often because I've written two other novels as well, so I've written three books, and writing a novel and fiction is sometimes like you know just bleed onto the paper, right?

00:37:39.599 --> 00:37:40.639
Like it's that hard.

00:37:40.880 --> 00:37:50.880
But writing this story was unbelievably therapeutic because you know, I had spent so many years in the cult, and for a long time I thought it was my fault.

00:37:50.960 --> 00:37:52.000
I took the blame for all of it.

00:37:52.159 --> 00:37:57.920
Again, I'm not perfect, I didn't do everything right, I made my mistakes, but I was faithful, I loved her, I didn't want the divorce.

00:37:58.159 --> 00:38:01.840
My biggest failure was not protecting my wife and kids from Uncle Robert.

00:38:02.079 --> 00:38:20.719
But a lot of this goes back to when we first met, and it goes back to the title of the book, Stop the Tall Man Save the Tiger, which deals with an incredible dream Paige was given, that I believe was a warning from the Lord that Uncle Robert twisted on its head and used it to solidify his position and strength over her.

00:38:20.880 --> 00:38:27.920
And so being able to get it all down on paper and and just have this aha moment, it's almost like having this massive puzzle.

00:38:28.000 --> 00:38:30.719
Uh-and you've been missing like five pieces for years.

00:38:30.800 --> 00:38:35.760
You've been missing these five pieces, and now you found them, and you get to put them in, you finish the puzzle.

00:38:35.920 --> 00:38:36.880
That's what it was like.

00:38:37.679 --> 00:38:38.159
Wow.

00:38:38.400 --> 00:38:42.960
So, what message do you hope readers will walk away with after reading your book?

00:38:43.760 --> 00:38:46.159
So there's three main messages uh from my story.

00:38:46.320 --> 00:38:55.920
The the first is that a strong marriage needs Christ in the center, and parents and kids and pastors and counselors, they can all help, but from the outside, in between, you can't have anybody between the husband and wife.

00:38:56.000 --> 00:38:57.840
It's gotta be the Christ, it's gotta be the Lord.

00:38:58.159 --> 00:39:02.159
Number two, salvation comes before sanctification.

00:39:02.400 --> 00:39:08.079
So you are saved, it's a free gift, you can't earn it, and then you grow in your faith, that's sanctification.

00:39:08.320 --> 00:39:14.000
Anyone that tries to switch the order is acting as a gatekeeper to God, and that's what Uncle Robert did.

00:39:14.159 --> 00:39:17.280
And by switching the order, they make themselves necessary.

00:39:17.440 --> 00:39:20.079
You know, you can't be saved unless you work with me.

00:39:20.320 --> 00:39:21.679
Unbiblical and wicked.

00:39:21.920 --> 00:39:28.800
And then number three, you have to maintain strong fellowship, communication, relationships.

00:39:29.039 --> 00:39:40.400
And I don't care if it's Friday night beers, Saturday bowling, book club, Bible study, whatever it is, you have to stay in communication and fellowship with your friends, your family, and your loved ones.

00:39:40.480 --> 00:39:44.079
Because when you become isolated, you become vulnerable.

00:39:44.239 --> 00:39:45.760
That's the biggest message.

00:39:46.639 --> 00:39:47.280
Yeah.

00:39:49.119 --> 00:39:51.519
Why do you still call him Uncle Robert?

00:39:52.079 --> 00:39:52.960
Good question.

00:39:53.199 --> 00:39:57.679
I called him that for uh, you know, it was almost like his first name was Uncle, his last name is Robert.

00:39:57.760 --> 00:39:59.840
I don't think I even knew his last name for a long time.

00:40:00.000 --> 00:40:06.800
And then when I started to recover and get out, my sister-in-law, she had been vilified and shunned by the cult 20 years prior.

00:40:06.960 --> 00:40:08.719
I mean, she what happened to her was awful.

00:40:08.880 --> 00:40:12.480
I reconnected with her, hadn't talked to her in probably almost 20 years.

00:40:12.880 --> 00:40:14.000
She asked me that same question.

00:40:14.079 --> 00:40:15.599
She says, Why do you call him Uncle Robert?

00:40:15.679 --> 00:40:17.199
He has no authority over your life.

00:40:17.440 --> 00:40:19.599
So I usually just call him Booty.

00:40:19.760 --> 00:40:26.480
And my kids, uh, when nobody calls him Uncle Robert anymore, they have other uh, you know, funny acronyms for him or nicknames.

00:40:26.880 --> 00:40:39.119
But for the podcasts, I usually refer to him as Uncle Robert because it I've tried to demonstrate that for a very long time he did have this sway, this hold over me.

00:40:39.519 --> 00:40:43.360
Uh so when you know, we're not talking on like a podcast referencing the cult.

00:40:43.440 --> 00:40:44.320
He's just booty.

00:40:44.480 --> 00:40:45.280
He's just booty.

00:40:45.519 --> 00:40:46.559
He's just booty?

00:40:46.800 --> 00:40:47.039
Yeah.

00:40:49.280 --> 00:40:51.599
That's weird saying that he's just booty.

00:40:53.440 --> 00:41:02.239
So, what personal habits or mind shifts, um, let's say mindset shifts uh help you rebuild your life.

00:41:02.559 --> 00:41:02.880
Wow.

00:41:03.039 --> 00:41:13.360
Well, I would say this: you know, when we were under the thumb of booty and and in the cults, you weren't allowed to question him.

00:41:13.440 --> 00:41:15.920
You had to just accept him blindly.

00:41:16.079 --> 00:41:21.199
And he was adamant that we as you know Christians under his thumb, we all had to agree on everything.

00:41:21.360 --> 00:41:22.480
And you know what?

00:41:22.639 --> 00:41:24.400
Uh we don't agree on everything.

00:41:24.719 --> 00:41:27.920
That's that's kind of rare, and I think that's okay.

00:41:28.159 --> 00:41:33.599
As long as we have our foundational beliefs, you know, that Jesus is Lord, he died, and rose again.

00:41:33.920 --> 00:41:34.719
We believe in that.

00:41:34.800 --> 00:41:40.159
But you know, when it comes to like, I don't know, infant baptism or you know, which political party do you agree with?

00:41:40.400 --> 00:41:53.440
I think it's okay for us to disagree and then we can have rational, sane, healthy discussions about it, because then that forces us to be humble, to be respectful for each other, even if we don't agree.

00:41:53.679 --> 00:41:55.840
And then that's also how we learn, right?

00:41:55.920 --> 00:41:58.559
Like if we think we know everything, we'll never learn anything.

00:41:58.719 --> 00:42:00.400
It's when we realize and are humble.

00:42:00.639 --> 00:42:01.280
Well, you know what?

00:42:01.360 --> 00:42:02.079
I didn't know that.

00:42:02.239 --> 00:42:03.679
Thanks for sharing that with me.

00:42:03.920 --> 00:42:05.440
That was a mind shift.

00:42:05.599 --> 00:42:07.599
I had to really be comfortable with it.

00:42:07.679 --> 00:42:12.800
I had to be comfortable going to a church where the church I go to now, I don't agree with my pastor on everything.

00:42:12.960 --> 00:42:15.280
A lot of stuff I do, but some things I don't.

00:42:15.360 --> 00:42:17.199
And he knows that, and we had good talks about it.

00:42:17.280 --> 00:42:18.800
And that's okay, right?

00:42:18.880 --> 00:42:19.840
That's life.

00:42:20.000 --> 00:42:22.800
And so being okay with that, that took a while.

00:42:22.960 --> 00:42:23.360
Wow.

00:42:23.679 --> 00:42:27.440
Do you feel anger or forgiveness or peace when you look back now?

00:42:27.679 --> 00:42:29.039
Well, I certainly have peace about it.

00:42:29.199 --> 00:42:30.480
There's no shame.

00:42:30.719 --> 00:42:34.880
I think that's probably uh a hard thing for a lot of people when they come out of a cult.

00:42:34.960 --> 00:42:36.000
There is guilt and shame.

00:42:36.079 --> 00:42:38.400
How could I have been so stupid to fall into this?

00:42:38.800 --> 00:42:43.119
And and I probably had a little bit of that early on, but I have absolutely none of it now.

00:42:43.280 --> 00:42:45.519
You know, my vulnerability was I love my wife.

00:42:45.679 --> 00:42:48.400
Didn't want to lose my marriage, didn't want to lose it.

00:42:49.039 --> 00:42:51.440
Uh, and there's no anger anymore.

00:42:51.679 --> 00:42:55.519
There is at times anger with the current process.

00:42:55.679 --> 00:43:01.679
You know, the youngest kids still live with me, and their mother is still very angry with me, still attacking me through the course.

00:43:01.840 --> 00:43:04.320
And that's not fun, and I gotta deal with it.

00:43:04.480 --> 00:43:08.159
But I don't have any guilt or shame or anger when I look back on that.

00:43:08.320 --> 00:43:13.440
Rather, I look back and think, it made me who I am today.

00:43:13.599 --> 00:43:17.119
I'm a million times stronger now than I ever was.

00:43:17.679 --> 00:43:22.239
Are there times where I wish I could have learned these lessons in a simpler fashion?

00:43:22.400 --> 00:43:22.880
Yeah.

00:43:23.440 --> 00:43:24.719
But it wasn't to be.

00:43:24.800 --> 00:43:27.599
And so what I went through shaped the man I am today.

00:43:27.760 --> 00:43:28.719
And I'm thankful for it.

00:43:28.880 --> 00:43:30.960
Yeah, I'm thankful for you being on the show.

00:43:31.599 --> 00:43:40.480
So if someone's listening and suspects a loved one uh being influenced by a cult, what would you what would you tell them?

00:43:40.719 --> 00:43:45.360
Well, I would tell them first and foremost, if they are, they don't know it, right?

00:43:45.599 --> 00:43:47.679
If they're in a cult, they don't know it.

00:43:47.920 --> 00:43:50.079
You, the loved one, does.

00:43:50.559 --> 00:43:54.639
So your help uh might not be accepted.

00:43:54.719 --> 00:43:59.760
Uh they might get angry with you, but since you see it, you have to take the first step.

00:44:00.239 --> 00:44:05.039
You have to initiate what might be an awkward, a difficult conversation.

00:44:05.360 --> 00:44:10.480
But you have to take the initiative and you have to be patient, be kind, and be loving.

00:44:10.719 --> 00:44:17.920
And the best way for that person, that loved one, if they truly are brainwashed, is to remove them from the cult.

00:44:18.159 --> 00:44:24.400
Obviously, you can't do anything illegal or harmful, but you may share your pearls of wisdom, and it may be brilliant.

00:44:24.480 --> 00:44:26.480
You may practice this speech, it's great.

00:44:26.719 --> 00:44:30.320
And your friend or loved one might start to really have their eyes and ears open.

00:44:30.400 --> 00:44:30.880
They get it.

00:44:31.039 --> 00:44:43.840
And then the moment they go back to the cult members and the cult leader, wherever it is, their group, their building, their church, within 10-15 minutes with the coded language of the cult leader, all that you've done is erased, just like that.

00:44:44.159 --> 00:44:53.440
That person really needs to be removed from the presence of the other cult members and the leader for a weekend or whatever, or just for a few days, and then you lovingly share the truth to them.

00:44:53.519 --> 00:45:06.480
And if you give them enough time, then their eyes and ears will be open and they'll have the strength to say, wait a minute, I know that coded language, I know what they're trying to do, they're trying to get me sucked back in, and I'm not buying it this time.

00:45:06.719 --> 00:45:11.440
And that that right there, what I've just described, is probably a very difficult thing to do.

00:45:11.599 --> 00:45:12.880
Possible, but difficult.

00:45:13.840 --> 00:45:14.719
Difficult, yeah.

00:45:15.119 --> 00:45:18.800
So behind the scenes in the darkest moment, who was Peter?

00:45:19.039 --> 00:45:36.239
Peter was um a shadow of a man, beaten down, worn out, eroded, scared of his own shadow, confused, suffering massive cognitive dissonance, wondering what in the world happened to his life.

00:45:37.119 --> 00:45:41.920
And uh and I, you know, I lost my marriage for a time.

00:45:42.000 --> 00:45:45.039
I lost my family, but I never lost my faith.

00:45:45.440 --> 00:45:50.079
As much as that little narcissist tried to tear it away from me, I never lost my faith.

00:45:50.320 --> 00:45:51.440
And who's Peter today?

00:45:54.079 --> 00:46:05.280
Well, Peter's a single dad uh who loves his children, who loves being a dad, and is a million times stronger now because of what he went through.

00:46:05.840 --> 00:46:07.599
Um I've got some scars.

00:46:07.760 --> 00:46:14.159
I've got a lot of mental, emotional, and spiritual scars that have toughened me and made me stronger.

00:46:14.639 --> 00:46:17.760
And um and again, I'm thankful for that.

00:46:18.800 --> 00:46:27.519
And I have a lot of work left to do with my children because you know I pray that one day I'll have a healthy relationship with all five of them.

00:46:27.599 --> 00:46:36.559
Well, where they can sit down with me and I can give them a hug and and they can consider me dad and we can have a good conversation because right now I can't with all five of my kids.

00:46:37.760 --> 00:46:45.840
If your life journey had a title besides your book, what would it be and why?

00:46:46.800 --> 00:46:49.440
It's similar to the last line in my book.

00:46:50.000 --> 00:47:01.360
And uh it might be a little a bit of a long title, but um you know my story is messy, it's bizarre, it's tragic, it's also miraculous.

00:47:02.079 --> 00:47:04.000
Because none of us can save ourselves.

00:47:04.159 --> 00:47:10.800
If we can save ourselves, we wouldn't need a savior, we wouldn't need religion, but we can save ourselves.

00:47:10.960 --> 00:47:15.199
And so every person that has been saved, that story is a miracle.

00:47:16.000 --> 00:47:22.159
My miracle story is first and foremost a miracle, but getting there was pretty bizarre.

00:47:22.480 --> 00:47:23.679
Yeah, that sounded pretty good.

00:47:23.840 --> 00:47:25.039
That sounded pretty good.

00:47:25.840 --> 00:47:28.880
So, what legacy would you leave to your children and to the world?

00:47:29.119 --> 00:47:31.599
That our Lord and Savior can do anything.

00:47:31.840 --> 00:47:40.000
If he can rescue me from that crazy situation and make me the man that I am today, then he can work miracles in your life.

00:47:40.159 --> 00:47:46.000
So, whatever it is, like for the people who are listening and watching this, whatever it is you're going through, Lord's not surprised.

00:47:46.079 --> 00:47:52.800
You know, you haven't pulled a fast one on him, he knows what's going on, and he can he can save the day.

00:47:52.960 --> 00:47:56.000
I mean, I've seen it happen in my life over and over again.

00:47:56.159 --> 00:48:07.199
Um, there's this great verse or a few verses in James chapter one, and again, I'm paraphrasing, but it says, if you lack wisdom, ask the Lord, and he will give it to you.

00:48:07.280 --> 00:48:10.559
He'll generously give it to you, but you can't doubt.

00:48:10.719 --> 00:48:11.760
You have to believe.

00:48:11.920 --> 00:48:14.000
Believe he's gonna give it to you, and he will.

00:48:14.079 --> 00:48:15.280
And he's done it with me.

00:48:15.440 --> 00:48:17.760
And so I don't say that as an arrogant person.

00:48:17.920 --> 00:48:20.719
I don't say that I'm a million times stronger because I'm arrogant.

00:48:20.880 --> 00:48:26.559
I simply say it as a person who asked for wisdom, believe the Lord gave it to me, and he did.

00:48:26.800 --> 00:48:33.039
Okay, as we as we wind up with Cali Cat Tap Talks, Peter, how do we get a hold of your book?

00:48:33.280 --> 00:48:37.119
So you can go to my website, it's authorpeteryoung.com.

00:48:37.280 --> 00:48:44.800
You can also go to Amazon, Barnes and Noble, all the major online retailers, retailers, and you will find it there.

00:48:44.960 --> 00:48:47.280
And on my website, also you can reach out to me.

00:48:47.360 --> 00:48:49.119
I love to come speak in person.

00:48:49.280 --> 00:48:55.920
I'm on a lot of podcasts, and um, you know, I'd love I'd love to even you know dive deeper into this story.

00:48:56.079 --> 00:49:00.880
And also I have written other books uh you can kind of see behind me, they're about faith in basketball.

00:49:01.039 --> 00:49:06.960
I'm a former basketball player, coach, and broadcaster, so I love sharing life's principles through sports.

00:49:07.360 --> 00:49:10.000
Well, what do you play basketball at, Peter?

00:49:10.480 --> 00:49:18.960
I played basketball at George Washington University, Washington, D.C., and then I coached uh one year at the University of Colorado, and then several years uh in high school.

00:49:19.119 --> 00:49:21.599
So you said that you were in the Bay Area.

00:49:21.840 --> 00:49:26.719
My best weekend ever was at the Stanford Christmas tournament a long, long time ago.

00:49:26.800 --> 00:49:29.440
But yeah, but I had two pretty good games in a row.

00:49:29.920 --> 00:49:30.559
Wow.

00:49:30.880 --> 00:49:32.960
We're gonna have to bring you back to week this time.

00:49:34.480 --> 00:49:35.519
I would love that.

00:49:36.239 --> 00:49:43.840
All right, this is Calicat Cap Talks, and we're gonna say thank you very much, Peter, for being on the show.

00:49:44.159 --> 00:49:45.360
Thank you very much for having me.